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The Capital Wasteland : CANCELLED

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Acting contracts are pretty rigid...:P

It could be done by contract with Bethesda AND the actors and studios that have rights... Could be very, very, complicated.

The other way is to pay the original actors to rerecord the dialog.

Edited by Cryzeteur

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It makes no sense though. Courts have ruled, time and again, against this type of enforcement by game studios.

If the mod authors aren't bundling the audio with their mod, they aren't doing anything illegal. The rights over the audio only extend as far as commercial use. For personal use (which this mod would fall under if it imported audio from Fallout 3 on the user's PC), neither Bethesda nor the voice actors have any authority.

Edited by Arrogant

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4 hours ago, Arrogant said:

It makes no sense though. Courts have ruled, time and again, against this type of enforcement by game studios.

If the mod authors aren't bundling the audio with their mod, they aren't doing anything illegal. The rights over the audio only extend as far as commercial use. For personal use (which this mod would fall under if it imported audio from Fallout 3 on the user's PC), neither Bethesda nor the voice actors have any authority.

This is technically true but Bethesda could simply get in a twitch and do something nasty in return. Individual actors could also get upset and either demand a contract or refuse to perform in Bethesda games... or even file lawsuits for penalties.

Edited by Cryzeteur

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56 minutes ago, Cryzeteur said:

This is technically true but Bethesda could simply get in a twitch and do something nasty in return. Individual actors could also get upset and either demand a contract or refuse to perform in Bethesda games... or even file lawsuits for penalties.

The original contract stated they were doing voice lines for Fallout 3, and they did. The players who purchased Fallout 3 also purchased those voice lines, which the voice actors were paid for. Contract fulfilled.

Just because a player who owns Fallout 3 then decides to use those voice lines in Fallout 4 doesn't mean anything. They have the right to use them like that since they purchased Fallout 3. Bethesda can't do anything, nor can the voice actors. There is nothing unlawful going on, nothing that would win them a case in court.

The only leverage Bethesda has is that they have money and lawyers to spare. Even if they're in the wrong, they can still sue the developers of the mod until they give up. It's pretty damn shitty, and definitely something one should think about when the next Bethesda game is released -- you're doing them a favor by buying their games, despite their horrible treatment of the modding community.

Edited by Arrogant

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Fallout NV can read Fallout 3 BSAs. Fallout 4 can not.

This means that voice files should be unpacked and then repacked for Capital Wasteland. If CW team can not use original files for their conversion, then they can be held liable for piracy issues around redistributed content. We can repack files for our own use of course, but that is not how copyright laws see this. By definition, CW requires files to be repacked.

Furthermore there is an issue with voice file types. If I recall correctly, FO3 and FNV were using older file formats, while next generation of BGS releases were using new voice file versions. If I am correct with the latter (not a sound expert) then this wouldn't only mean repacking files, but converting them.

Requirement to repack files would already go very deep in to gray area. If I am right about file types, then converting them will throw it directly outside of it.

Unless ZeniMax decides to release converted and repacked files for third party conversion, then I do not see legal way for this to happen right now.

Tales of two Wastelands does not have this issue, because FNV can use FO3 BSAs and voice types directly. They do not provide repacked content. Instead they provide installer that uses FO3 resource files in FNV engine, which does not cause copyright issue, or make them liable for piracy around resource files.

Edited by Ilja

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The end-user has every right to unpack the archives and convert the file types themselves. It doesn't matter what the EULA says, they are not enforceable when they contain such language. Courts have stated as much, time and time again.

If the end-user has the right to do that, then so does any software the end-user installs and runs. All Capital Wasteland needed was a custom launcher to do that work for them. The end-user is clicking the button to initiate it on their own PC and with their own files that they purchased. There is no legal gray area there. It's all 100% legal.

Edited by Arrogant

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Launcher system is exactly what other similar projects are using. Others have also mentioned that this is one possible route for Capital Wasteland to continue.

Biggest problem is that ZeniMax legal team does not agree. They made it clear that release of Capital Wasteland would be (at least in their opinion) illegal in it's current state, which caused team to back down, rather than going against them.

Current method of distributing voice files is out of the question, when they can't directly use content from FO3 without repacking and probably converting them. This is where the legal team seems to be hanging to.

Right now, CW isn't "dead" yet, but on hold. NafNaf is taking a break from modding. We will see what comes out of this, if they are able to provide installer, which makes proper AV type conversions and repacks BSAs to BA2 from player hard drive. That is something ZeniMax legal department might go with.

I am not sure if it is that easy though. BA2 system does not work entirely as BSA does. Is there a tool that allows packing files as BA2 with ESP association, other than 64bit Creation Kit? This is another thing where ZeniMax might be reluctant to come forward. This launcher you talk about should be able to do the conversion like CK64 does and re-associate files to new ESP files.

One method could be providing empty BA2 files with the mod, so that launcher can fill them from BSA file structure. I consider this very unlikely, unless ZeniMax comes more than half way through.

Nothing prevents us players for repacking files ourselves. Thing is that I do not see most of them doing that. It is far more likely that they would start uploading them to dubious sites for easier distribution. I believe this is what ZeniMax legal is especially worried about and CW team understood they would restrain their relations to Bethesda with this possibility.

------------

Edit (actual): I got informed that FO4 should be able to play .wav files from FO3. I am not 100% certain if that would work correctly, or not. If it does, then there would be one problem less.

Edited by Ilja
Typos. I do those at 01:55 at morning.

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2 hours ago, Arrogant said:

The original contract stated they were doing voice lines for Fallout 3, and they did. The players who purchased Fallout 3 also purchased those voice lines, which the voice actors were paid for. Contract fulfilled.

Just because a player who owns Fallout 3 then decides to use those voice lines in Fallout 4 doesn't mean anything. They have the right to use them like that since they purchased Fallout 3. Bethesda can't do anything, nor can the voice actors. There is nothing unlawful going on, nothing that would win them a case in court.

The only leverage Bethesda has is that they have money and lawyers to spare. Even if they're in the wrong, they can still sue the developers of the mod until they give up. It's pretty damn shitty, and definitely something one should think about when the next Bethesda game is released -- you're doing them a favor by buying their games, despite their horrible treatment of the modding community.

Your argument only applies to personal use. You cannot use any part of someone else's mod and redistribute it without their permission.

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1 hour ago, Ilja said:

Launcher system is exactly what other similar projects are using. Others have also mentioned that this is one possible route for Capital Wasteland to continue.

Biggest problem is that ZeniMax legal team does not agree. They made it clear that release of Capital Wasteland would be (at least in their opinion) illegal in it's current state, which caused team to back down, rather than going against them.

Current method of distributing voice files is out of the question, when they can't directly use content from FO3 without repacking and probably converting them. This is where the legal team seems to be hanging to.

Right now, CW isn't "dead" yet, but on hold. NafNaf is taking a break from modding. We will see what comes out of this, if they are able to provide installer, which makes proper AV type conversions and repacks BSAs to BA2 from player hard drive. That is something ZeniMax legal department might go with.

I am not sure if it is that easy though. BA2 system does not work entirely as BSA does. Is there a tool that allows packing files as BA2 with ESP association, other than 64bit Creation Kit? This is another thing where ZeniMax might be reluctant to come forward. This launcher you talk about should be able to do the conversion like CK64 does and re-associate files to new ESP files.

One method could be providing empty BA2 files with the mod, so that launcher can fill them from BSA file structure. I consider this very unlikely, unless ZeniMax comes more than half way through.

Nothing prevents us players for repacking files ourselves. Thing is that I do not see most of them doing that. It is far more likely that they would start uploading them to dubious sites for easier distribution. I believe this is what ZeniMax legal is especially worried about and CW team understood they would restrain their relations to Bethesda with this possibility.

------------

Edit (actual): I got informed that FO4 should be able to play .wav files from FO3. I am not 100% certain if that would work correctly, or not. If it does, then there would be one problem less.

This is the same problem Skywind and Skyblivion faced. Because of the usage issues Bethesda is allowing them to use many resources but they had to remake all the meshes and textures for the conversion. And loading the game checks to make sure the gamer has both Skyrim and Morrowind and/or Oblivion. Of course they would have had to redo all the resources anyway since the old games have few resources that can be directly transferred and still look good or sound good.

Edited by Cryzeteur

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16 hours ago, Cryzeteur said:

Your argument only applies to personal use. You cannot use any part of someone else's mod and redistribute it without their permission.

1. What do you mean by that? I can create a mod that uses the Fallout 3 audio files, upload it without them, and allow people to download it -- that's 100% legal.

2. They wouldn't be redistributing it if they used a tool to import the audio files into the installation for their mod to use. It would never leave the end-user's PC, and the end-user would initiate it.

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2 hours ago, Arrogant said:

1. What do you mean by that? I can create a mod that uses the Fallout 3 audio files, upload it without them, and allow people to download it -- that's 100% legal.

2. They wouldn't be redistributing it if they used a tool to import the audio files into the installation for their mod to use. It would never leave the end-user's PC, and the end-user would initiate it.

The problem arises when the files have to be reformatted and included in the mod. If they could use the files directly from the game folder I doubt there would be any objection.

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On 14/03/2018 at 8:58 PM, Arrogant said:

1. What do you mean by that? I can create a mod that uses the Fallout 3 audio files, upload it without them, and allow people to download it -- that's 100% legal.

2. They wouldn't be redistributing it if they used a tool to import the audio files into the installation for their mod to use. It would never leave the end-user's PC, and the end-user would initiate it.

you own fo3, play fallout 3 and upload it to youtube, you will probably get a copyright strike due to some of the music playing on the ingame radio.

 

bethesda is not the full copyright owner of every single asset in their games.

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1 hour ago, Morrandir said:

you own fo3, play fallout 3 and upload it to youtube, you will probably get a copyright strike due to some of the music playing on the ingame radio.

 

bethesda is not the full copyright owner of every single asset in their games.

That isn't personal use. You're uploading it to the internet for others to see.

I own Fallout 3. I can extract the audio files, put them on my phone as a ringtone, and it'd be 100% legal. There is nothing that Bethesda or those who created the audio can do. I am in the right in that scenario. I purchased Fallout 3, I can do as I wish with the assets that come with the game provided it's for personal use.

In the case of Capital Wasteland, it would be. The developers would not be uploading any assets they can't share. They would not be acting unlawfully in any sense of the word. Instead, they would provide a tool that allows the end-user to move assets they own into the mod they downloaded for a game that they own. Again, nothing unlawful. The process of moving assets from one game to another is completely legal, and so is providing a tool that automates that process.

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Even with TTW Bethesda asked for Nexus not to host it, but hasn't gone beyond that.
If its true though that the Capital project wouldn't just turn F3 into a mod extracted from the disc, but instead require a lot more manual work,might be different story.
That said, legally a free mod is just a free mod and if it still requires the base game of F3 Bethesda doesn't have a case.
If it doesn't require F3 that is different.

 

I dunno, just bummed.
Bethesda themselves should re-release F3 on the Fallout 4 engine, that would resolve it, and they'd make some money.
That said FNV has a ton of features F4 does not, I think I'd prefer TTW whe all is said and done.
Maybe they can rework the mod so its the Capital Wasteland 10 years on, building their own world-space based on what we know the Brotherhood did to the Capital in the intervening years.
That way their work isn't wasted and we get a whole new experience to enjoy.

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