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Gopher's Minions

PODCAST : Making Settlements Great Again!


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This sounds kinda cool.

Elder Scrolls VI Valenwood? I want tree houses, underwater houses, towers, and dungeons. I want to dig into the ground/rock similar to Minecraft. I want to hire workers: cook, advisor, guards, maids, farmers, blacksmith, mages. I want my workers to actually work. How about harvesting silk and poison from spiders. Buy alchemy stuff from the alchemist, etc. Hire hunters and explorers to find specific things. Hire porters to carry loot back home. A stable boy who actually takes care of your mount.

Everyone you hire demands different things, equipment, facilities. Happiness with penalties and bonuses.

Spouses and children need to have personalities more fully developed and more unique. A vampire child should be a handful. As an orc would be. Elf children should be mischievous. Same with wives. A priestess wife is different from a fisherwoman. etc. Romance should also be different for the different spouses. Maybe the children should be apprenticed out with attendant problems.

Maybe some objects would bring problems when displayed. An outside guard visiting might report a stolen item. Thieves might try to break in, especially if your house is not guarded.

There needs to be clean stuff. You don't build a new house with dirty stuff. Maybe the new stuff has to be special made. That would be fine. Cobble, wood, and stone walls are fine. 

I don't know about glass. Maybe glass should be poor quality, but potion bottles are fine glass, so why not clear windows.

Meshes that don't conflict. Vault 88 meshes are terrible. Pathing is terrible. Need everything really fixed and working.

Edited by Cryzeteur
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2 hours ago, Cryzeteur said:

This sounds kinda cool.

Elder Scrolls VI Valenwood? I want tree houses, underwater houses, towers, and dungeons. I want to dig into the ground/rock similar to Minecraft. I want to hire workers: cook, advisor, guards, maids, farmers, blacksmith, mages. I want my workers to actually work. How about harvesting silk and poison from spiders. Buy alchemy stuff from the alchemist, etc. Hire hunters and explorers to find specific things. Hire porters to carry loot back home. A stable boy who actually takes care of your mount.

Everyone you hire demands different things, equipment, facilities. Happiness with penalties and bonuses.

Spouses and children need to have personalities more fully developed and more unique. A vampire child should be a handful. As an orc would be. Elf children should be mischievous. Same with wives. A priestess wife is different from a fisherwoman. etc. Romance should also be different for the different spouses. Maybe the children should be apprenticed out with attendant problems.

Maybe some objects would bring problems when displayed. An outside guard visiting might report a stolen item. Thieves might try to break in, especially if your house is not guarded.

There needs to be clean stuff. You don't build a new house with dirty stuff. Maybe the new stuff has to be special made. That would be fine. Cobble, wood, and stone walls are fine. 

I don't know about glass. Maybe glass should be poor quality, but potion bottles are fine glass, so why not clear windows.

Meshes that don't conflict. Vault 88 meshes are terrible. Pathing is terrible. Need everything really fixed and working.

I second this ! But keep dreaming xD

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29 minutes ago, Cryzeteur said:

So true... Why is that? Are they lazy? Or just confused?

personally i think lazy, if not the team then the editors that don't want to ask for more time. I mean there is a ton of content in skyrim and in FO4, but it all feels washed down

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Elderscrolls 6, Elseweyr

Cats vs Lizards; it is your job to help and protect Elseweyr by helping to rebuild the settlements along the border with Black Marsh. There will be a Khajit named Kalash who will have word of a settlement that needs your help. You will be Rakshasa-born.

(yes, the lore and geography will be broken by the Bethesda team)

Edited by Mechazawa
keep forgetting which elderscrolls we are at lol
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I think Gopher nailed the creative difficulty with this aspect of the game: you need the settlement building system to be detailed enough that there's enough depth there to keep people interested, while at the same time ensuring that people who have no interest in creating settlements can skip it entirely - or at least almost so. That's a very difficult balance. Clearly FO4 had the latter one, and almost the former (with many noticeable irritating features nonetheless). I also think that Gopher holding up Helgen Reborn as a system that appealed to both settlement builders and those who could care less, is a perfect example of one that got it right. Overall, I do not envy Bethesda the task of trying to balance this in the future. 

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I enjoyed making a home/basecamp in Skyrim but felt it was missing quite a lot.

That said I hope the next Elder Scrolls does not go overboard on a home building system (mini minecraft game within a game) .

If the trade is more exploring and side quests over home vs delux home system I choose exploration and side quests.

I would love it if BGS would give the modding community the tools and let the modders tweak and expand the home/town building in the next ES game.

IMO BGS needs to spend their time and money on producing a game equal to or better than Witcher 3.

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16 hours ago, Mechazawa said:

So uh.. any word on when this will be uploaded to his channel? I would like to see it :(

Only Gopher knows when he will upload it to youtube.

That said, since it was the last thing he did on twitch you can watch it there right now. It will be there until he twitchs something else.

https://www.twitch.tv/gophergaming

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23 hours ago, PSquared said:

I think Gopher nailed the creative difficulty with this aspect of the game: you need the settlement building system to be detailed enough that there's enough depth there to keep people interested, while at the same time ensuring that people who have no interest in creating settlements can skip it entirely - or at least almost so. That's a very difficult balance. Clearly FO4 had the latter one, and almost the former (with many noticeable irritating features nonetheless). I also think that Gopher holding up Helgen Reborn as a system that appealed to both settlement builders and those who could care less, is a perfect example of one that got it right. Overall, I do not envy Bethesda the task of trying to balance this in the future. 

I agree ... mostly. The Helgen player home could be improved, but the idea is good. The quest to rebuild Helgen could be made more compelling like the Rynéus Black Stone quest in Enderal or the Hearts of Stone or Blood and Wine main quests in Witcher 3.  There should be major quests, interesting lore heavy quests, like Dragonborn or Solstheim that culminates in unlocking a new player home. Then rebuilding that home should follow the Fallout 4 model for Vault 88. Sanctuary was only fair as a quest including the Minuteman quest line... it simply was not fleshed out... too much was missing. Unlocking player homes could culminate in a radiant quest to unlock more locations and expand the player's kingdom.

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18 hours ago, OutandBack said:

I enjoyed making a home/basecamp in Skyrim but felt it was missing quite a lot.

That said I hope the next Elder Scrolls does not go overboard on a home building system (mini minecraft game within a game) .

If the trade is more exploring and side quests over home vs delux home system I choose exploration and side quests.

I would love it if BGS would give the modding community the tools and let the modders tweak and expand the home/town building in the next ES game.

IMO BGS needs to spend their time and money on producing a game equal to or better than Witcher 3.

I agree that the next game must be lore heavy with amazing quests. The Witcher 3 DLC are perfect examples of lore quests well done.

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42 minutes ago, Cryzeteur said:

I agree that the next game must be lore heavy with amazing quests. The Witcher 3 DLC are perfect examples of lore quests well done.

I think the issue with this reasoning is Witcher 3 isn't moddable like TES games are. Witcher 3 had to have a lot better content because what you see is what you get; with TES games the reality is no matter what they do someone will come along and make quest mods that blow what they do out of the water. I would put money on the notion that they pull back on some areas of the game because they know mods will be a thing. (Random Tangent; it reminds me of my days in University, I would put less effort in easy classes and more effort in harder classes; as a result I ended up getting B's across the board more than one semester in a row. I pulled focus from some areas and put focus in others and as a result ended up with a slightly above average consistency. Where I would have gotten a C I got a B and where I would have gotten an A I got a B.)

Also the Witcher isn't really a game where you play a role other than what they made you play. In the TES games the role is what ever you want; TES questing and roleplay is like the minecraft of character fantasy, you can almost do what ever you want and play however you want. Because of that you can't have all that compelling questing because you cannot infer anything but the most basic things about the PC. You are lucky to get quests that recognize your race or sex; much less your background. There are too many contingencies to be had and this is what makes quests compelling; how they related to you. Either by your involvement in particular, or how you encounter the NPCs after the fact and how they have developed as a result of what you do. If they had to update the world with the results of every quest and every combination of quests possible it would be basically impossible, unless it was a very linear game. Witcher 3 is pretty linear, you have two paths. Though I have not seen the DLCs so maybe its different in them.

I think the biggest thing that holds quests back though is the need for bethesda to voice act everything. Morrowind had stronger quests because you could put loads of detail into them even for simple stuff like collecting mushrooms. Quests in modern TES games are essentially limited by what the voice acting budget is. Unless they do some kind of weird crowd sourced voice acting thing I don't know how that will ever be fixed.

Edited by Mechazawa
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1 hour ago, Mechazawa said:

 

I think the issue with this reasoning is Witcher 3 isn't moddable like TES games are. Witcher 3 had to have a lot better content because what you see is what you get; with TES games the reality is no matter what they do someone will come along and make quest mods that blow what they do out of the water.  ...

Also the Witcher isn't really a game where you play a role other than what they made you play. In the TES games the role is what ever you want; ...

I think the biggest thing that holds quests back though is the need for bethesda to voice act everything. ...

This is only true under the old game mechanics. We are getting into a next generation of games that use true AI to figure out what will happen next with true character response. The new games that will come out will not define every action, only the characters behavioral pattern. NPCs will "know" what they should know and respond accordingly. Voice actors will be replaced by voice emulation so that they may say things that are not scripted. The game will probably have a response matrix with possible responses and NPCs will choose parts of the matrix that fit the situation. They will seem living beings who have intelligence.

I do not know if Bethesda has solved the problems with this kind of engine yet. I do know that they have been playing with it. Bethesda does not like the idea of voice synthesis, but voice emulation might fly. Voice emulation is based on actors voices, so it is the same as if the actor is speaking. I have heard demos of Groucho Marks and Bob Hope so I know it is possible. I do not know if the technology is at a point it will work in PCs or consoles. The actors still get paid.

I know that ProjektRed and Bethesda have been developing the AI open intelligence, I do not know if it will be ready by 2020 or so. There are other companies working on it.

Edited by Cryzeteur
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Computer generated voices are still two games off (so maybe in TES 8) at least. It is possible 7 could have something but it won't be any good. What you are essentially talking about is a radiant voice algorithm. Making voices believable, having a library of unique voices, and doing both cheaper than hiring a guy to speak into a microphone, is a ways off I think. If voices were not involved then this could have been done 10 years ago. AI generated poetry exists ( http://botpoet.com/vote/sonnet2/ ), so AI generated prose would be half the effort; and thats what true radiant dialog would be like, AI generated prose. You could probably even get results from such a system that are -more- interesting then the hand crafted ones for radiant style quests.

For text, decent, dare I say, "good" radiant quests already exist as an option. Vocalizing that is a massive under taking because even in speech synthesis you need someone to sit there and record loads of phonemes. Bethesda is not going to use just any ole public database; they will want to make their own with many people. It would probably actually cost more to do; however they could use the same system in multiple games.

Also AI is not any kind of a limiting factor here. Consoles are; AI can only get as complex as a console allows it to be. You can easily lower visual details and put stuff on a console; you can't just shut off complex AI; thats shutting off what makes the game the game. If Bethesda (and by extension every other gaming company) did not release games on consoles they would be 20 years ahead when it comes to their RPGs. Really good AI requires more CPU power and more importantly very good access to the internet; you are not going to be able to make everyone download all of wikipedia and what ever else you use as a database for your AI to draw information from. Good AI requires a massive database of information to pull from. Even if you only pulled from say http://en.uesp.net, thats still a lot.

Also, all of that ^^^^ is just for english, localization into other languages would be a pure nightmare.


 

Edited by Mechazawa
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Yes. I was on the team that invented voice recognition so I am aware of the problems. However, we are talking about consoles that don'r even exist yet. Also many of the devs are talking about cloud computing. So true AI is coming. Virtual synths will come before physical synths.

There are driving commercial and military applications.

Bethesda tried am AI interface already that played the game better than human players.

There is AI in Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk2077 will contain an improved AI engine.

The only question is: How far will it go?

Edited by Cryzeteur
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Cloud Computing, ensuring that you get the smallest user base possible. lol. I have really good internet and even I could not do cloud computing, I have comcast, I would hit the cap in a few days. We only get 300GB per month here in the southern united states. You would reach that in less than a week if you played a few hours a day. Also, I don't see bethesda ever going online only. As that would effectively obliterate modding. People don't like DRM. Definitely don't like always-online DRM.

Consoles that don't exist yet? They do exist, they are called ps4, and xbone 1, thats where we are right now. And in a few years those consoles will finally catch up to a low end dell from the early 2000's. Don't expect amazing AI in any games unless they are PC exclusives.

Also, you were born prior to the 50's? Speech recognition was invented in 1952.

Edited by Mechazawa
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43 minutes ago, Mechazawa said:

Also, you were born prior to the 50's? Speech recognition was invented in 1952.

Yes.

I can't say much about what I did but Wikipedia says, "In 1971, DARPA funded five years of speech recognition research through its Speech Understanding Research program with ambitious end goals including a minimum vocabulary size of 1,000 words."

I worked for DARPA.

Edited by Cryzeteur
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