Jump to content
Gopher's Minions
OutandBack

FALLOUT 4 : The Myth of Mainstream needing a 'DUMB DOWN'

Recommended Posts

I agree with Gopher, however cat and pigeons comes to mind. 

I am glad that Gopher can be a voice of reason in these matters, as soon as you introduce different "tiers" of gamers you introduce elitism and tribalism; yes human beings categorize the universe the find themselves in, but all of us need to be careful how we do that.

 

 

Edited by Caloss2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gopher is right.

Fallout was anticipated on its release and I bought my  copy at Gamestop in a midnight line. Nothing could be more mainstream. Just look at the hype in the magazines.

However, I would caution that no one knows what mainstream actually IS.

Mainstream changes daily, even moment by moment. It depends on a sort of mysterious mass effect... center of gravity sort of thing in public consciousness.

I remember looking down on casual gamers, newbies, kidgamers, lookieloos, etc... Under that view "mainstream" was what ever group of friends you had at that time... The In-Crowd always knows best... :P

Ummm... Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls (and dare I say World of Warcraft) were probably more anticipated as RPGs than Fallout. But this doesn't change Gopher's argument. I remember the argument over how to capture the girl market. Some said Fallout was best because it took place in a more real world and others argued that Elder Scrolls was better because girls are looking for prince Charming. This was based on the idea that girls are more right brained and boys are more left brained. Generalizations are not very realistic.

I like to ignore Trolls.

My message to Bethesda is: Don't make a game for current consoles. Period.

 

 

 

Edited by Cryzeteur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Cryzeteur said:

My message to Bethesda is: Don't make a game for current consoles. Period.

 

 

 

Agreed.  Only true fans like me will be eagerly anticipating the ability to play the next Elder Scrolls game on the Sega Genesis 32X.

 

(I agree with you on everything except the console thing. )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow angry Gopher is angry.

 

Bethesda is out to make money first and foremost.

Yes they did take some suggestions and they tried new things which is healthy for a company or for that matter an individual to do, some of the things did not work and some did; I am damn sure todd and the team are looking at what works and doesnt and will rectify it for the next TES game.

The idea of pandering to other genres is frankly a stupid statement we all know what to expect from a fallout or elder scrolls game and it is the style and feel of how the game is, no one said "ah but new vegas pandered to fps ahooters by allowing iton sights' 

 

The internet is full of stupid people allowed to voice their stupid opinions.

 

One rule should be followed when even the thought of designing something the internet wants, look at snakes on a plane then back away and use the core ideas you know work and try to implement substituts for those that dont.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, beavis_the_pagan said:

Agreed.  Only true fans like me will be eagerly anticipating the ability to play the next Elder Scrolls game on the Sega Genesis 32X.

 

(I agree with you on everything except the console thing. )

I'm not saying they should not release a game for consoles... just not the current console limitations. And if consoles don't get better, then release a low end version that will run on consoles. Just don't use console limitations as a limiting force.

Edited by Cryzeteur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Slushy_Bucket said:

Wow angry Gopher is angry.

 

Bethesda is out to make money first and foremost.

Yes they did take some suggestions and they tried new things which is healthy for a company or for that matter an individual to do, some of the things did not work and some did; I am damn sure todd and the team are looking at what works and doesnt and will rectify it for the next TES game.

The idea of pandering to other genres is frankly a stupid statement we all know what to expect from a fallout or elder scrolls game and it is the style and feel of how the game is, no one said "ah but new vegas pandered to fps ahooters by allowing iton sights' 

 

The internet is full of stupid people allowed to voice their stupid opinions.

 

One rule should be followed when even the thought of designing something the internet wants, look at snakes on a plane then back away and use the core ideas you know work and try to implement substituts for those that dont.

 

I wrote Hollywood scripts for years and came to hate it. One of the script writers had a piano that "played" scripts. All you had to do was hit a few notes and the script was generated. Such scripts were used for years to generate stories for soap operas and even main stream stories. The rules went to such things as ten minutes in you present the first solution. Twenty minutes in you make the world fall apart. Thirty minutes in things are made worse by a solution that fails. Forty minutes in you propose a solution. Fifty minutes in the solution fails. Fifty-five minutes in a last ditch effort saves he day. It is a very boring way to write stories.

Edited by Cryzeteur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My own little rant:

Don't say dumbed down, say over simplified instead then. Either word you use I think the result was still the same. I think what gets people is that Fallout 4 was over simplified in a way that didn't work. Take Skyrim, it has probably the best character system I have seen in an elderscrolls game. People criticized it for being "dumbed down" because there was no more "stats". But RPGs don't need stats, they need progress maps. Stats were an attempt at visualizing linearly a set of milestones. There is no system where every single stat points matters and changes the dynamics of your character, rather they all contain unwritten milestones. 16 charisma was a milestone because it was what you needed to be a paladin in DND, other than that it had no use, 17, 15, 14, 13, etc was all useless, either charisma didn't matter, you needed 16, or you needed 18; no matter what class you played. You could eliminate the charisma stat and have 3 perks that do the same thing. For other stats like str, dex, and so on, each point hardly mattered other than for milestones, much of which were simply to get prerequisites. Having 1 more to your reflex save was not the most useful thing. Fallout 4 didn't need skills or even stats for that matter. You could have revised the perk chart, granted more perk points (level up, environment, and so on), and altered the perk requirements so that the number of points required for the perk reflected the value of the perk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Cryzeteur said:

I wrote Hollywood scripts for years and came to hate it. One of the script writers had a piano that "played" scripts. All you had to do was hit a few notes and the script was generated. Such scripts were used for years to generate stories for soap operas and even main stream stories. The rules went to such things as ten minutes in you present the first solution. Twenty minutes in you make the world fall apart. Thirty minutes in things are made worse by a solution that fails. Forty minutes in you propose a solution. Fifty minutes in the solution fails. Fifty-five minutes in a last ditch effort saves he day. It is a very boring way to write stories.

I'll have to admit that I read more than I play games, and I believe that's a fair outline for a number of novels as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Casual Gamers most definitly exist, whether they play ten minutes or two hours doesnt change that. 'Casual gaming' is a style or a preference, a valid one, but different from the people whom you see complaining. There are always people 'looking down' but those are usually also the morons of the group. the people who take 'PC master race' stuff serious are similar.

'Games like Fallout 4 were as mainstream as they could get', wasnt that why people complained? I dont really understand why you said that, tbh.

Anyways; the Fallout series is a series of shooters with an RPG element. Fallout 3 was one, Fallout;NV was like it(the RPG element was bigger but it was still a shooter) and Fallout 4 is a shooter with an RPG element. Some people just expect something different, but they didnt pay attention. Thats all.

As for the next TES, expect them to pick up where they left off with Skyrim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Badges said:

I'll have to admit that I read more than I play games, and I believe that's a fair outline for a number of novels as well.

True, but the pacing is a little different.

Folk tales that are generally based on real life incidents, rarely follow this pattern. And quite often no one comes to save the day.

 

4 hours ago, Nailcake said:

Casual Gamers most definitly exist, whether they play ten minutes or two hours doesnt change that. 'Casual gaming' is a style or a preference, a valid one, but different from the people whom you see complaining. There are always people 'looking down' but those are usually also the morons of the group. the people who take 'PC master race' stuff serious are similar.

'Games like Fallout 4 were as mainstream as they could get', wasnt that why people complained? I dont really understand why you said that, tbh.

Anyways; the Fallout series is a series of shooters with an RPG element. Fallout 3 was one, Fallout;NV was like it(the RPG element was bigger but it was still a shooter) and Fallout 4 is a shooter with an RPG element. Some people just expect something different, but they didnt pay attention. Thats all.

As for the next TES, expect them to pick up where they left off with Skyrim.

I agree. Casual gamers and casual gaming exist. It is more attitude than hours. Casual gamers just fiddle around time to time and never really get into the game. Now RPGers are very different. They make the game their own. They pretend there is an individual backstory and then play as though their character is playing. However, whether you are shooting arrows or bullets or attacking with hand-to-hand or knives or swords (or technology vs magic) all games with enemies to defeat have very similar elements. Fallout and Final Fantasy are very similar games and role playing in either of them is pretty much the same. So calling Fallout a "shooter" is a bit of an exaggeration. Doom is a classic shooter and very difficult to role play. I guess the real classic shooter was Duck Hunter. LOL

and I remember a game actually called Shooter that was very much like Duck Hunter. Space Invaders was a shooter.

I vaguely remember role playing PacMan. It was easier to role play Pokémon or Mario Bros though. In the early days we had limited outlets...

The very first role playing game was Adventure, which later came to be known as Colossal Cave. Though many programmers, including myself had already adapted D&D to their iK memory computers and calculators. Even today, D&D is a better role playing game when played with a living DM.

Morrowind has been called the best role-playing game because of the character selection. I don't know. I think it all depends on your imagination. I sometime role play a female character because the female mindset is really different, and role playing a female is a learning experience. All males should do this before marriage. :D

 

Edited by Cryzeteur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just listened to Gopher again and he points out how influential trolls are. I saw this in Final Fantasy Online. The trolls wanted more challenging game mechanics so only the best gamers could defeat the bosses. They wanted multi-key moves that produce awesome dodges, blocks, jumps and martial combat moves. These guys are really vocal and game companies listen to them. Most gamers don't care if battles just require pushing "A" multiple times. I personally like the combat system in Kingdom Hearts. It was hard to get used to, but the spectacular jumps and attacks really are awesome. Some people like multiple hot keys. I prefer no more than eight based on "A" "B" "X" "Y" "UP" "DOWN" "RIGHT" "LEFT." My biggest complaint is when devs use several keys for the same thing. For example, sometimes "A" is accept. but other times "RT CLICK" is accept and other times "Y". In the inventory the "Y" key and "A" key are easily confused when one time they drop and other times get all. My fingers get confused. Not to mention my brain.

Yes. Keyboard users have the same problems.

You would think devs would be more careful if they were concentrating on mainstreaming, instead they are just trying to get things to work.

Modders complain that they spend a lot of time correcting bugs because the devs were sloppy. Devs often shoot back that the platform they developed on changed in the final game. However, what we usually find is that the engine is just flakey.

Microsoft is the traditional example of development by a room full of monkeys. Every dev worked on a separate thing and there was no coordination between the monkeys. The truth is that complex projects are subject to the laws of chaos. They become unpredictable. Game engines are unpredictable because of their complexity.

So games will not be perfect until we have a supervisor regulating the game engine and correcting the mistakes. AI is supposed to do this but is still in a primitive state. But AI can provide the greater intelligence needed to make game mechanics more interesting without making the game only for the expert users. Expert users are not mainstream. They are vocal trolls but not mainstream.

So my point is that making intelligent games that do not seem dumbed down because of technology is not easy. Bethesda does a remarkable job.  

Elder Scrolls appeal is specifically the mystery, the strange intelligence and unusual perspective, the surprises, the glimpses of chthonian logic, weird mythos, wonderful puzzles, and the unexpected. The diversity of the Houses and Guilds typify this intelligent diversity. I remember when it first came out Morrowind was criticized for its weird cults and dark mysticism. It was said only intellectuals loved the game. Well, it turns out that people have a hunger for that kind of intellectual stimulation. They liked it. Intelligence IS mainstream.

Edited by Cryzeteur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cryzeteur said:

I agree. Casual gamers and casual gaming exist. It is more attitude than hours. Casual gamers just fiddle around time to time and never really get into the game. Now RPGers are very different. They make the game their own. They pretend there is an individual backstory and then play as though their character is playing. However, whether you are shooting arrows or bullets or attacking with hand-to-hand or knives or swords (or technology vs magic) all games with enemies to defeat have very similar elements. Fallout and Final Fantasy are very similar games and role playing in either of them is pretty much the same. So calling Fallout a "shooter" is a bit of an exaggeration. Doom is a classic shooter and very difficult to role play. I guess the real classic shooter was Duck Hunter. LOL

and I remember a game actually called Shooter that was very much like Duck Hunter. Space Invaders was a shooter.

I vaguely remember role playing PacMan. It was easier to role play Pokémon or Mario Bros though. In the early days we had limited outlets...

The very first role playing game was Adventure, which later came to be known as Colossal Cave. Though many programmers, including myself had already adapted D&D to their iK memory computers and calculators. Even today, D&D is a better role playing game when played with a living DM.

Morrowind has been called the best role-playing game because of the character selection. I don't know. I think it all depends on your imagination. I sometime role play a female character because the female mindset is really different, and role playing a female is a learning experience. All males should do this before marriage. :D

I have to say that I roleplayed in quite a few games and some really were shooters or 'combat simulators'. Roleplaying is something that you can do in a lot of games without those games really being RPGs :)

You will find that a large number of Fallout 4 players see a shooter. And they arent wrong. The one thing I remember when I started playing it was that it was a very smooth combat game. The one thing I missed(and it surprised me a bit, I have to be honest) were the quests that Skyrim had. All the secondary quests combined(Cabot, Silver Shroud, etc) are about as long as Skyrims Civil war questline alone. Its weird considering that Skyrim sold 23 million units(before the appearance of SSE). Then again, FNV had plenty of quests and didnt get more sales than Fallout 3. They consider the two to be seperate, I can understand that. Now that I think about it, I'm fine with that seperation.

Thats what it comes down to really, if a different approach doesnt give you different results, you might aswell go back to what you already had. Giving Bethesda the franchise and having them do what they do best; make a shooter. Really, if you ask Bethesda to make a full fledged RPG, you may well get an ugly monster since thats not really something they have any (recent) experience with. And considering that Bethesda was already close to bancrupcy once(then Zenimax took over Bethesda and saved them), I doubt they are going to take any risks and just make more of the same. Nowadays they are just way to famous and way to big to take risks anyways. I can go on for hours about that stuff; Todd Howard who gets more shit than he really deserves or how in this gaming industry making profit is a priority. Ah well, I'll leave that for some other time.

The next TES and Fallout games will be more of the same. If you have an interest but dont like what they did with the current Fallout, I suggest you wait until others have bought it and given their 2 cents. If you hear me say 'shooter with RPG elements', you'll know what I meant.

I recommend making a character that looks/acts like your girlfriend, I guarantee; its fun :D and quite the learning experience :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/6/2017 at 6:33 PM, Cryzeteur said:

My message to Bethesda is: Don't make a game for current consoles. Period.

To me, this is the biggest limitation "Triple-A" games enforce on themselves. No matter what one thinks of the FO4 dialog system one must admit that it was designed around, and limited by, a console controller. 4 buttons, 4 choices. And I can only imagine how difficult it must be to design a game around multiple platforms, the console versions of which are drastically limited relative to PC, especially with memory and such. Some games manage (i.e., better scale on PC) different platforms versions better than other, but I always wonder what decisions are made, early in the design process, that are specifically curtailed by the limitations of consoles. Things like world size, or enemy AI - far more fundamental than just "running reliably at 60 fps" (gasp!). It's fairly simple to design a game that can visually scale well with available hardware (says I, knowing very little), but I wonder about how many other game processes don't scale so, and thus are left crippled because of console limitations.

And this is of course aggravated by the fact that, at launch, the PS4 and XB1 were so feeble relative to the PC offerings at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scalability has be on the cards for developers, w3 plays amazingly well on lower spec systems or consoles and also it is eye wateringly pretty on a higher end pc.

Both controllers and mouse/keyboard work well, the point being that it can be done.

The 4 button dialogue options in Fo4 I thought was just terrible design, and it didn't need to be like that, game pads have more than enough controls include at least two paddles to navigate a complex dialogue system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Caloss2 said:

Scalability has be on the cards for developers, w3 plays amazingly well on lower spec systems or consoles and also it is eye wateringly pretty on a higher end pc.

Both controllers and mouse/keyboard work well, the point being that it can be done.

The 4 button dialogue options in Fo4 I thought was just terrible design, and it didn't need to be like that, game pads have more than enough controls include at least two paddles to navigate a complex dialogue system.

I wonder if this is because CDPR's roots are based in PC gaming and most American Dev's only look at a PC port if they have to? Some refuse to port all together.

PC games have never held an equal 1/3rd say in the gaming world. I do believe that is changng do to the horrendous xb1/ps4 release back in 2014 with basicly no games worth playing for an entire year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 0:41 PM, Nailcake said:

I have to say that I roleplayed in quite a few games and some really were shooters or 'combat simulators'. Roleplaying is something that you can do in a lot of games without those games really being RPGs :)

You will find that a large number of Fallout 4 players see a shooter. And they arent wrong. The one thing I remember when I started playing it was that it was a very smooth combat game. ...

Thats what it comes down to really, if a different approach doesnt give you different results, you might aswell go back to what you already had. Giving Bethesda the franchise and having them do what they do best; make a shooter. Really, if you ask Bethesda to make a full fledged RPG, you may well get an ugly monster since thats not really something they have any (recent) experience with.....

The next TES and Fallout games will be more of the same. If you have an interest but dont like what they did with the current Fallout, I suggest you wait until others have bought it and given their 2 cents. If you hear me say 'shooter with RPG elements', you'll know what I meant.

I recommend making a character that looks/acts like your girlfriend, I guarantee; its fun :D and quite the learning experience :D

The weird thing is that I always played these games as RPGs. I never played them as shooters. I really don't like shooters... :P

Except DOOM.... I liked DOOM. :)

Edited by Cryzeteur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, PSquared said:

To me, this is the biggest limitation "Triple-A" games enforce on themselves. No matter what one thinks of the FO4 dialog system one must admit that it was designed around, and limited by, a console controller. 4 buttons, 4 choices. And I can only imagine how difficult it must be to design a game around multiple platforms, the console versions of which are drastically limited relative to PC, especially with memory and such. Some games manage (i.e., better scale on PC) different platforms versions better than other, but I always wonder what decisions are made, early in the design process, that are specifically curtailed by the limitations of consoles. Things like world size, or enemy AI - far more fundamental than just "running reliably at 60 fps" (gasp!). It's fairly simple to design a game that can visually scale well with available hardware (says I, knowing very little), but I wonder about how many other game processes don't scale so, and thus are left crippled because of console limitations.

And this is of course aggravated by the fact that, at launch, the PS4 and XB1 were so feeble relative to the PC offerings at the time.

The reason the dialog system got so heavily critisized is because you can do it differently, you can have a list with 20 dialog choices you scroll through with your controllers arrow keys or thumb controller or whatever you have on there. A bit like FNV and FO3 did. In one dialog 3 choices, in another 5. Worked well enough. I suppose it just looked nice so they went with it.

I agree that consoles have certain limitations and if we'll be honest, they keep back innovation in games. If you have to design every single game to work with hardware like an (upgraded, but still) AMD Jaguar while there is stuff out there that blows it out of the water does limit possibilities and advances.15 years ago games advanced incredibly quickly, new milestones being set all the time. The drawback was that a PC was outdated and unable to play new games within two years, if it did it was on low settings. I spent quite a bit of money upgrading to keep up back then. It inevitably means that some people get left behind because they dont have the cash to spend(by contrast, today a 'potatomasher' isnt expensive at all) so it wasnt really pro consumer and doesnt really help the developers sell more either. Then again, gamers at the time expected to see games advance and innovate constantly, I notice that that isnt true anymore or less important than it used to be.

Dont want to be anti console or something like that, just saying what I've seen in the years. Some people buy a new expensive phone every month while I stick to an old phone that I'm really happy with. Not the best analogy but you get the point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol, you guys seriously think the 4 dialog options had anything to do with the controller? Bethesda does not design their games around what a controller is able to do, otherwise they would never have buttons with multiple functions; they would just design their game around not needing those extra functions. They had 4 dialog options because the team that designed it was told at some point there will be the good, the bad, the yes and the no. They very likely genuinely thought there was going to be choice and outcomes and you know..a difference between the dialog options.

There is nothing wrong in this thinking, most RPGs, even stuff like the classic fallouts or the infinity engine games, generally only had 2 maybe 3 outcomes with dialog. The only real reason you would have more options is for long question lists, ie. lore. The problem was that bethesda is apparently ran like the government where by no team communicates with any other team at all. Some teams probably didn't even know they were working on a fallout game, since everything is so compartmentalized, they were likely told "we need a generic dialog system that does X" and then later some other team was tasked with labeling and implementing the writing from yet another team, all with virtually no communication. The game is later put together by another team with parts manufactured by various other teams in other locations, you know, like how most things in this world are manufactured. The dialog system sucked because the writing of the game was atrocious (I have yet to play a male character, and I refuse to, his dialog is some of the most cringe worthy dialog in any video game. The sheer number of times her said "War, War never changes." was mind numbing.) Had the dialog been better then it would have been fine, you could have had 4 possible outcomes to a given event that that is more than enough in practicality. The other issue is that quests have to be programmed with multiple outcomes, and very likely the dialog is written before the quest so the quest coder has no choice but to program just the amount of outcomes that the writer put into the quest.

Long rant short; its the writers fault. IT is as if someone shot an email to a writer who has never done...any writing before and was like "we need generic story for a generic post apocalypse game", and then he wrote it..later on some other editor came in and added fallout sounding words. Like "vault-tec" and "power armor". It is like in star trek, the writer would write the story and then another guy would come in and added technobabble like "dilythium chamber" and "warp 9".

And on top of all of that, you clearly had two seperate writers, one for the story and dialog, and one for the lore and small stories in the game. The game has some really nice side stories and little lore tidbits and such for the various locations. It is just the main quests lines that have atrocious writing.

Edited by Mechazawa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 3:03 AM, Damon Gant said:

I'm just gonna leave this here.

 

This is so long that it took me three days to watch it all. Four observations. First, he goes overboard on his criticism of Fallout 4 as an RPG while detailing how they have done a good job on some RPG quests. Second, his comments on what makes Fallout 4 work and where Bethesda messed up are pretty much correct. Third: His tie in with Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind is a bit confusing, though the exploration, kill, gather cycle is obvious. Fourth, the last few minutes about story conflicts are simply silly. (synth? really?)

Edited by Cryzeteur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...